tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post387808019704354009..comments2024-03-28T18:12:39.123-05:00Comments on A Knight at the Opera: The New School, the Old School, and 5th Edition D&DDwizhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17255968459773708115noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-39706005104089485472021-12-05T19:08:45.357-05:002021-12-05T19:08:45.357-05:00While I agree with much of the individual points y...While I agree with much of the individual points you touch upon in the article, and agree with the strengths and weaknesses you identify in the 5E game, I don't agree entirely with the start of the article. Comparing the reactions from when 5E came out first to the reactions now that is. The reason reactions have shifted so much is in my opinion not so much because people don't remember; but more because 5E has changed so much that it's no longer the same game. <br /><br />I'm firmly into OSR, but I will still touch 5E if my players really want to, however any 5E game of mine is going to be core rulebook only or perhaps CRB + some homebrew gritty hacks. Running 2014 CRB 5E is to me a completely different beast than running the 2021 "all WotC and Critical Role printed player options allowed" 5E that seems to be the de facto default in any public 5E space I ever frequent. So yeah, I do complain about 5E, and I complain about it loudly, but my complaints are less about its core design, and more about the bloated sideshow it became and also about how through the years it has fostered certain (to me unwanted) traits in the mainstream player community. <br /><br />Now I'm going to back to my hacked together B/X game with added advantage/disadvantage rules because yes I like 5E mechanics.Grumbling Game Masterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10671390096811708908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-53417197680919128972021-10-21T10:10:28.511-05:002021-10-21T10:10:28.511-05:00Coming from the glatisant, that comment aged well....Coming from the glatisant, that comment aged well. No idea how Ben chooses the blog posts, but I'm glad I read this one.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18059457558058867177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-79431363393134215622021-10-16T10:00:59.538-05:002021-10-16T10:00:59.538-05:00I remember when Magic the Gathering first came out...I remember when Magic the Gathering first came out. Most D & D players thought it was the devil and would be the ruination of D D. Both are still around and healthy!<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00746835318801819448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-47360026709287115002021-10-05T11:34:19.787-05:002021-10-05T11:34:19.787-05:00What you've described is the very next point I...What you've described is the very next point I listed immediately after "Combat as Sport." I'm sure it would be fair to say that they're actually the same thing, but I separated it into its own point because I believe it's worth making the distinction of "tactical combat" as it's own design goal and playstyle, with or without balance. More fiction-first combat that's highly deadly and mostly focused on cunningly using your environment or trickery is a very different headspace than combat where you're considering positioning mechanics, facing, opportunity attacks, targeting saving throws, distributing buff effects, choosing the right "moves" or "combos," etc.Dwizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17255968459773708115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-69279876170687152862021-10-04T13:59:29.587-05:002021-10-04T13:59:29.587-05:00I could be wrong but I always understood combat as...I could be wrong but I always understood combat as we and combat as sport to be about encounter balance. Combat as sport meant players expect to survive and if they don’t the DM screwed up. Combat as war meant no such expectation, better be ready to retreat if necessary. <br /><br />That difference is huge in play and could be something that changed peoples impressions of 5e as more and more adventures came out. Ruprechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00139664977453444000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-83700730755301098922021-09-18T11:52:30.374-05:002021-09-18T11:52:30.374-05:00"More useful" toward what purpose?
I f..."More useful" toward what purpose? <br /><br />I found the article quite interesting. Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08712569684250055374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-17896225607970185462021-09-17T05:34:58.841-05:002021-09-17T05:34:58.841-05:00I have a vague feeling we have already had this di...I have a vague feeling we have already had this discussion... I agree that "old-school gaming" is a poor term. However, when the phenomenon emerged, it was used amongst D&D players to refer to one specific style of play. Nobody (sane) argued it was the only way people played back in the day, only that it has fell out of favour (and in fact was generally deemed stupid and childish) and was "misunderstood". People criticised the style without knowing what it was really about, and the official rules (3.0 and 3.5) removed much of the mechanical support for it (without the procedural framework, learning how to adjudicate random encounters was much tougher).Ynas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-30555756244096886882021-09-17T05:25:30.204-05:002021-09-17T05:25:30.204-05:00IMHO using numbered bullets for listing the trends...IMHO using numbered bullets for listing the trends of old/new school design is misleading as it implies a certain ranking (importance, commonality, or both?). Just a small quibble.<br /><br />I think it's more useful to contrast the play cultures of 5E and "what we call old school D&D" than the systems (albeit the systems do make a difference). And it's not like everyone who played AD&D played the same way, but when the OSR came to be (in the mid-2000s), it was focussing on a particular style of play that was generally looked down upon (sometimes even in the 80s!) and was almost completely ignored commercially (save for perhaps by Necromancer Games).Ynas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-78327512015901940302021-09-15T02:22:27.484-05:002021-09-15T02:22:27.484-05:00Thanks for your comment! I think I would call 5E O...Thanks for your comment! I think I would call 5E ONE of my systems of choice, if that makes sense. It's almost certainly the least old school, too. And I think it's quite telling that I am the only player in my party who has kept the same PC from level 1 to our current level of 18, so you can guess how much I like character creation as well.Dwizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17255968459773708115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-91786563247358853832021-09-15T01:32:01.280-05:002021-09-15T01:32:01.280-05:00I've been enjoying your blog though I have to ...I've been enjoying your blog though I have to admit I was a little surprised initially that 5E was your system of choice. I guess 5E is less crunchy than 3E (or 4E) but it's still larded down with skill systems and a pretty convoluted character creation process. I think you get all the crunch you really need from a B/X style engine (AS&SH, OSE, or LotFP are good options that are being produced currently and you can support a small business too). I guess it's a matter of perspective but if you can't roll up a character in like 15 minutes it doesn't feel all that "old school" to me. ligehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05866236293322652977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-56375969321437107562021-09-13T13:10:57.411-05:002021-09-13T13:10:57.411-05:00I've been slowly compiling my personal ideal v...I've been slowly compiling my personal ideal version of D&D as a homebrew project, bashing together pieces from different editions and variants. <br /><br />I started with a B/X base and thought I'd mostly be using 1980's era rules but as I compared the different ways of doing things across editions, I found again and again that I prefer the 5e version. <br /><br />I don't love the 5e presentation, or the way their classes / level advancement works but almost everything else is really good for me.Deadtreenoshelterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18109223559705593102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-44480660829462457812021-09-12T21:27:21.053-05:002021-09-12T21:27:21.053-05:00Thanks!
If you read Jon Peterson's Book _The ...Thanks!<br /><br />If you read Jon Peterson's Book _The Elusive Shift_, it should document for you and for anybody you discuss it with how variable RPGs and play styles were from the outset. I recommend it, anyway.<br /><br />The variety of needs that players want to fulfill has existed from the beginning of the hobby, because people are still the same now as they were then. "Old School" versus "Modern" is a spurious dichotomy. I can tell from your post you have been thinking about that, and I appreciate it.Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-32646790286569474852021-09-12T20:41:18.245-05:002021-09-12T20:41:18.245-05:00I usually post my OSR-related stuff in his Discord...I usually post my OSR-related stuff in his Discord server and every now and then he decides to put it in the Glatisant, but I never got the sense that he really "accepts submissions." But hopefully he finds this one worth sharing!<br /><br />I would say that our two experiences are MOSTLY pretty normal... except for that Star Wars stage. I wonder if there's an underlying reason for that. Personally, I was just getting hype for the Force Awakens at the time.Dwizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17255968459773708115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-74711908354889168232021-09-12T20:19:54.289-05:002021-09-12T20:19:54.289-05:00It's almost uncanny how similar our experience...It's almost uncanny how similar our experiences in the playground of ttrpgs have been. I started with 4e, moved to PF, then SWSE, and now onto 5e — with heavy modifications, house rules, etc.<br /><br />As you say, _that's_ what 5e does well. It bends without breaking. Its core is remarkably supple, able to gather all kinds of narrative structures and mechanical situations neatly under an umbrella of unified resolution mechanics and bounded upper limits. It accepts plug-ins with ease. I hacked and hacked at PF1e and it was exhausting and hard and unrewarding. With 5e, I get my hands on Ultraviolet Grasslands or Neverland or Into the Odd and I'm able to port things back and forth with relatively low effort.<br /><br />You should send this article to Ben Milton for his newsletter, the Glatisant. Issue #20 is coming up and it collates RPG scene stuff; your graphic would be a thought-provoking addition.Veygabondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04831476237718294650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-17516096533592561312021-09-12T19:34:13.148-05:002021-09-12T19:34:13.148-05:00You're so very right! I honestly don't bel...You're so very right! I honestly don't believe that D&D has been truly "OSR" since before AD&D, so it's really a terrible name. People say silly things about how it was in the 70s and 80s like, "we never cared about story back then" or "we weren't interested in combat back then" and so on, which is ridiculous.<br /><br />I'm going to give your post a thorough read.Dwizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17255968459773708115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6111427000351828107.post-28563953103615799812021-09-12T17:16:18.213-05:002021-09-12T17:16:18.213-05:00Hi! You make some good points, especially the reco...Hi! You make some good points, especially the recollection that 5e was regarded initially as a victory for the OSR. People do have short memories, especially when surrounded by tight like-thinking cliques.<br /><br />I'd add to that my usual refrain, that he OSR players claim an "old school" style of play that was only one part of the reality in the old days. Your list of "old-school" features consists of items that were strictly optional and a matter of taste in the times that OSR people claim as formative. We had lots of other ways to play back then. Also, to mess with your chart, there is this thing that I wrote:<br />https://lichvanwinkle.blogspot.com/2020/07/myths-of-early-osr-2-only-old-school.html<br /><br />The bigger question to me is why fantasy gamers form sects, declaring some games and their players and designers to be their enemies? Seems pretty foolish to me, and in that I agree with you. I guess we can credit it to male hobbyist identity formation. Reviews regularly skewer games and modules that the reviewers never even tried, just to win level-ups in the eyes of their buddies. Players today bully each other just non-gamers used to bully the kids who played RPGs. Used to be that gamers were all on the same team.<br /><br />Take care and have fun!Tom Van Winklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00498476328377801884noreply@blogger.com